Ceres. [39], Not all late sagas involving dwarfs describe their size but all that do describe them as short. Potted by Sotades, about 460-450 BC from Ruvo, now in the British Museum. Myths and Folklore Wiki is a FANDOM Lifestyle Community. In western Europe household dwarfs were still heard of in the 18th century, but the institution declined. Sacred trees and groves in Germanic paganism and mythology. Kronos is the Greek equivalent. They share two core characteristics: they are powerful against myth units and they can pick up relics and store them in Temples. In early literary sources, only males are explicitly referred to as dwarfs, although they are described as having sisters and daughters, while both male and female dwarfs feature in later saga literature and folklore. According to Vladimir Orel, the English noun and its cognates ultimately descend from Proto-Germanic *dwergaz. Accounts of dwarfs vary significantly throughout history; however, they are commonly, but not exclusively, presented as living in mountains or stones and being skilled craftsmen. In ancient Greek mythology, Medusa is a Gorgon, one of three hideous sisters whose appearance turns men to stone. Elaborate dwarf weddings were celebrated at court, and in 1710 a dwarf couple spent their wedding night in the tsars bedchamber. Dwarf In Vlsunga saga which details the events that unfold after Loki extorts treasure out of the dwarf Andvari, to pay the wergild for his killing of tr, a being whose brother Regin is also described in some sources as either resembling or being a dwarf. They were principally famous for their skill in all kinds of metalwork and the forging of magical swords and rings, but they were also credited with profound wisdom and secret knowledge, having power to foresee the future, assume other forms, and make themselves invisible. And therefore they be, all for the most part, all pigmies; for the nature of the land is such. Though slow runners and poor riders, dwarves are said to be excellent warriors and defenders of their strongholds. Tolkien. [3], Norri, Suri, Austri and Vestri are four dwarfs, potentially depicted as four anthropomorphic figures on the hogback stone in Heysham in Lancashire, that according to the Prose Edda each hold up a corner of the sky, that was fashioned from the skull of Ymir. Unfortunately, the evidence about myth and ritual at Mycenaean and Minoan sites is entirely monumental, because the Linear B script (an ancient form of Greek found in both Crete and Greece) was mainly used to record inventories. [26] Anglian folklore tells that one can hear a forge from within a mound and feel furnace fires under the earth, while in Switzerland, the heat can be attributed to the underground kitchens of dwarfs. Strategy Central. Please refer to the appropriate style manual or other sources if you have any questions. Myth and Religion of the North: The Religion of Ancient Scandinavia. Answer (1 of 6): Firstly, there are no Elves or Dwarves in Greek mythology. General Articles. Mounds in Denmark can also be referred to by names derived from their inhabitants such as 'smedsberg' or 'smedshoie' ('smith's hill' or 'smith's mound'). In accordance with the rock-paper-scissors combat system, heroes are indifferent against human soldiers and can be beaten by them, especially when at a numerical disadvantage. Alala - The Greek goddess of war-cry. Hesiod also contributed Works and Days, an epic poem about the agricultural arts which includes elements of myth. [note 1][50] As Norns are also female, this could mean that dwarfs were conceived of by the author of the poem as able to be female, it is not clear whether either their mother (or mothers) are dwarfs, or if they themselves are considered dwarfs just because they are descended from dwarfs. The orthodox view treats the two poems as quite different in theme and treats the Works and Days as a theodicy (a natural theology). She is killed by the hero Perseus, who cuts off her head.To the Greeks, Medusa is the leader of an ancient, older matriarchal religion that had to be obliterated; in modern culture, she represents vital sensuality and a power that is threatening to males. However, some creators devise new powers or images for dwarves, giving the race a wider range of variation. The Theogony declares the identities and alliances of the gods, while the Works and Days gives advice on the best way to succeed in a dangerous world, and Hesiod urges that the most reliablethough by no means certainway is to be just. Legend says that it was also the first kris ever created. However, it was later popularized by the fiction of philologist and legendarium author J. R. R. Tolkien, originating as a hypercorrective mistake. In Greek mythology, Hera is the goddess of harvest. Fafnir, also spelled Ffnir or Frnir, was a dwarf and the son of the dwarf king Hreidmar and brother of the dwarves Regin, tr, Lyngheir, and Lofnheir. The meaning of . Please refer to the appropriate style manual or other sources if you have any questions. Exekias: Greek amphora depicting Achilles slaying Penthesilea. They were . They feature commonly in polytheistic religions, and may include characteristics of the mother goddess, Mother Nature or Master of Animals. Heroes are one of the three basic unit types in Age of Mythology. These gods are lesser-known to people today but are arguably far more important to discuss. [44] In later German folklore, the Zwergknig ('Dwarf King') is a tiny being but is capable of becoming enormously tall at will. He is physically the strongest of the sir and has fierce eyes, red hair and a full beard. Receiving help from a dwarf, however, such as being healed or given a treasure, was not seen as problematic; it has been proposed that the worldview of the saga writers was that a hero is not defined by achieving deeds alone, but by being able to both give and accept help. The Pygmies (Greek: Pygmaioi, from the adjective , from the noun pygm "fist, boxing, distance from elbow to knuckles," from the adverb pyx "with the fist") were a tribe of diminutive humans in Greek mythology. [36], In the early Old Norse sources, dwarfs are typically described vaguely, with no reference to them being particularly small; in the legendary sagas and later folklore, however, they are often described as being short. [40] In some German stories, the dwarf takes on the attributes of a knight but is most clearly separated from normal humans by his small size, in some cases only reaching up to the knees. A Handbook of Germanic Etymology. a. Loki b. Tyr c. Snotra d. !Jens. The Prose Edda. Dwarfs are also widely referenced in these sources as having family relations to others such as being brothers and sons. The obscurity that hangs over them, and the contradictions respecting them in the accounts of the ancients themselves, have opened a wide field for speculation to modern writers on mythology, each of whom has been tempted to propound a theory of his own. [38] Some names suggest a small size such as Nori and Nabbi, which have been translated as "tiny" and "little nub" respectively, however it has been argued that this was not necessarily the general rule. [21], The Codex Regius version of Vlusp records that dwarfs were produced out of the earth, while in the Prose Edda they form like maggots in the flesh of Ymir, which became the earth. While Loki, Eris, and Monkey are great examples of classic gods of mischief, other mythological trickster gods held more important roles in trying to explain why we have the world we do today. Sometimes they were located in far India, at other times near the Ethiopians of Africa. Apollonius of Rhodes, another scholar of the 3rd century bce, preserved the fullest account of the Argonauts in search of the Golden Fleece. The dwarves are occasionally called black elves (Old Norse svartlfar),[6] and in some instances theyre described as being dead or resembling human corpses.[7]. They are highly skilled craftsmen, and in Norse myths they are worshipers of rr and are known as dvergar. Proto-Germanic The dwarfs (or the more common and modern version dwarves) are creatures from Indo-European mythologies (especially Germanic and Celtic), fairy tales, fantasy fiction, and role-playing games. In the 18th and 19th centuries, the tsars and noblemen of Russia kept innumerable dwarfs. . dwarf, an individual who is much below the ordinary stature or size for his ethnic group or species. This little folk neither labour in lands ne in vines; but they have great men amongst them of our stature that till the land and labour amongst the vines for them. In Greek mythology, Eris caused a fight over a golden apple, which led to the Trojan War. Return to Mythical Creatures and Beasts Home. Here you can find articles dedicated to helping you learn the game, improve your skills and become a better player. Conversely, in Sigurar saga gla, the human Hlfdan is cursed after he throws a rock at a dwarf child, breaking its jaw and is subsequently visited by the child's father in a dream who curses him. [1] A different etymology of dwarf traces it to Proto-Germanic *dwezgaz, with the r sound being the product of Verner's Law. A dwarf ( pl. It was nicknamed Xena by the team, and later named Eris, after the ancient Greek goddess of discord and strife. as when the clamour of cranes goes high to the heavens, With . It also led to Pluto's demotion from a planet to a dwarf planet. It is reported that in springtime their entire band, mounted on the backs of rams and she-goats and armed with arrows, goes in a body down to the sea and eats the cranes' eggs and chicks, and that this outing occupies three months; and that otherwise they could not protect themselves against the flocks of cranes would grow up; and that their houses are made of mud and feathers and egg-shells. [67][65] The presentation of dwarfs living within stones continued into modern folklore surrounding specific landscape features such as the Dwarfie Stane, a chambered tomb located on the island of Hoy, and the Dvergasteinn in Seyisfjrur. Arcticles that apply to both AoM and AoM:TT. See also Pygmy.) As their mythology evolved, the most notable changes have had them become more comical and more mysterious. Sub-brown dwarf or planetary-mass brown dwarf is an astronomical object that formed in the same manner as stars and brown dwarfs . Jupiter. Jones) (Greek travelogue C2nd A.D.) : "The people of Dyme [in Akhaia (Achaea)] . The Swiss dwarfs, or earth-men, sometimes helped in agricultural work, found straying animals, and put out firewood or fruit for poor children to find. This Greek goddess039;s name was chosen for the dwarf planet responsible for discord on Pluto039;s classification amongst astronomers. The mountain dwarfs were organized in kingdoms or tribes, with their own kings, chieftains, and armies. Dwarves are always humanoid, but sources differ over specifics of height and lifestyles, and in some early stories the dwarves were even at full human height. Mine-dwelling dwarfs were usually more capricious and spiteful than their mountain brothers. He is defeated by Siegfried and afterwards serves the hero. The king's palace attained to the stupendous magnitude of Periwinkle's baby house, and stood in the center of a spacious square, which could hardly have been covered by our hearth- rug. A city in Stanislaus County, California, United States. In mythology, Dwarves are much like humans, but generally prefer to live underground or in mountainous areas. Who Were the Indo-Europeans and Why Do They Matter. Their leader, Cronus, was the father of Hestia, Demeter, Hera, Hades, Poseidon, Zeus, and Chiron. The Pygmies were often portrayed as pudgy, comical dwarves. Modern fantasy and literature has formed an intriguing weave of concepts, from the original dwarf, later Norse mythology, the dwarf of folk-tales, and other mythology. 2. The publics fascination with dwarfs continued into the 19th century. Little is known to suggest that the Greeks treated Homer, or any other source of Greek myths, as mere entertainment, whereas there are prominent Greeks from Pindar to the later Stoa for whom myths, and those from Homer in particular, are so serious as to warrant bowdlerization or allegorization. In these cases, female dwarfs are only mentioned alongside males and are not independently important to the plot. General Information But the sword was also found in other myths and legends as well. p. 235. He is also known as the Fenris Wolf (also given as Fenris-wolf) and Vanargand ("monster of van") usually . What are some major works in Greek mythology? And they marry them when they be half year of age and get children. Althea - One of the rarest Greek god names, Althea means healer. This Greek goddess039;s name was chosen for the dwarf planet responsible for discord on Pluto039;s classification amongst astronomers. Here they are advancing against Heracles and undertaking to kill him in his sleep; though they would not fear him even if he were awake. In terms of gods, the Greek pantheon consists of 12 deities who were said to reside at Mount Olympus: Zeus, Hera, Aphrodite, Apollo, Ares, Artemis, Athena, Demeter, Dionysus, Hephaestus, Hermes, and Poseidon. Pollux - Greek. [27], Rather than existing a "true" single nature of a dwarf, they vary in their characteristics, not only across region and time, but also between one another in the same cultural context and some are capable of changing their form entirely. The modern stereotypical dwarf has distinctive features, such as short stature, excessive hair, and skill at mining and metallurgy. Dwarfs remains the most commonly employed plural. . bringing to the Pygmaian men bloodshed and destruction: a. Dysnomia b. afreet or afrit a powerful evil demon or giant monster androsphinx a sphinx having the head of a man banshee (in Irish folklore) a female spirit whose wailing warns of impending death basilisk (in classical legend) a serpent that could kill by its breath or glance behemoth a gigantic beast, probably a hippopotamus, described in Job 40:15 . They belong to Germanic mythology, more specifically Norse, and were then fully rounded out in description in Old English, and later by J.R.R. In orsteins saga Vkingssonar, this family love is extended to the human Hlfdan who develops a fostering relation with the dwarf Litr, likely with Hlfdan as the foster son. Please select which sections you would like to print: Edward Olson Professor of Greek, of Philosophy, and of New Testament and Early Christian Literature, University of Chicago. [citation needed]. progress bar gradient color android; guardian quick crossword 15642. mutant punks city discord; office of travel and tourism industries; lenovo ix4-300d compatible drives They have strong associations with death and the earth (dark hair, pale skin) in mythology, and often dwelled within mountains and mines. The centaurs were spawned by the cloud nymph Nephele, who was raped by the . He compelled all strangers who were passing through the country to wrestle with him. While every effort has been made to follow citation style rules, there may be some discrepancies. Kubiovych, Volodymyr and Shevchenka, Naukove tovarystvo im. [51], Female dwarfs feature in the late Gibbons saga, Bsa saga and jalar-Jns saga, where they are referred to by the term "dyrgja". [42] Anatoly Liberman suggests that dwarfs may have originally been thought of as lesser supernatural beings, which became literal smallness after Christianization. Antaeus also lies there, but whereas art paints Heracles as alive and warm, it represents Antaeus as dead and withered and abandons him to Earth. 16-Nov-02, AoM v1.01. Gudrun: Gudrun was the wife of Sigurd in the Greek mythology. [83][84], Most dwarfs in modern fantasy fiction closely follow those of J. R. R. Tolkien's The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, where the dwarves (Tolkien's spelling) were distinguished from elves: most modern fantasy has continued this distinction. The best of the sultan's Laksamana (admirals), Hang . [70], The term 'dweorg' can be used in Old English texts to describe an illness; it is commonly used in medical texts derived from Greek or Latin sources, where it is used to gloss symptoms such as fever. In some societies dwarfs have served as favourites, jesters, or entertainers in the courts of sovereigns and the households of important persons. The original concept of dwarves is very difficult to determine. These names are not explained by stories but it has been theorised that they refer to the fires in the forges the dwarfs work, or to haugaeldarcode: isl promoted to code: is ('grave mound fires') that are found in later Icelandic folklore. Fafnir, one of the notorious dragons in Norse mythology, was actually a dwarf. (For the physiology of dwarf human beings, see dwarfism. Mars. [73][74] The item's function has been compared to the Sigtuna amulet I and Canterbury charm that seek to drive away a "lord of ursar" that is causing an infection, the latter explicitly with the help of Thor. It is possible, however, to treat the two poems as a diptych, each part dependent on the other. In contrast, female dwarfs seek to possess the male hero in the legends. The Centaurs (also known as Ixionidae) are a race of creatures that are part human and part horse. Articles from Britannica Encyclopedias for elementary and high school students. The Old Norse Language and How to Learn It, The Swastika Its Ancient Origins and Modern (Mis)use. It has been suggested that this would imply that dwarfs could be very tall, however, it has been noted that the sky could have been conceived of as being close to the earth at the horizon. In order to prevent the sky from falling down to the Earth, the dwarfs Norri, Suri, Austri, and Vestri were sent to the four corners (Northern, Southern, Eastern, and Western respectively . [2], For forms earlier than the Proto-Germanic reconstruction, the etymology of the word dwarf is highly contested. On this Wikipedia the language links are at the top of the page across from the article title. The 2nd-century BC tomb near Panticapaeum, Crimea "shows the battle of human pygmies with a flock of herons".[4]. [32] In skaldic and Eddic sources, it has been noted that their roles are what define them rather than their physical appearance, which has no great relevance. It must have been very pretty to behold their little cities, with streets two or three feet wide, paved with the smallest pebbles, and bordered by habitations about as big as a squirrel's cage. Corrections? The minority plural dwarves was recorded as early as 1818. However, the older spelling is still actively used. Saturn was the father of Jupiter, aka Zeus! It has a variety of cognates in other Germanic languages, including Old Norse: dvergr [dwerz] and Old High German: twerg. 5. The Cyclops in Greek mythology is actually an ancient dwarf elephant! Such discoveries illuminated aspects of Minoan culture from about 2200 to 1450 bce and Mycenaean culture from about 1600 to 1200 bce; those eras were followed by a Dark Age that lasted until about 800 bce. dwarfs or dwarves) is a type of supernatural being in Germanic folklore, including mythology. Their principal temple, or cathedral, was as lofty as yonder bureau, and was looked upon as a wonderfully sublime and magnificent edifice. It is the second largest dwarf planet, almost as big as Pluto. Humans, being of lower power and status, cannot control dwarfs as easily and require alternative strategies to obtain treasures from them, potentially explaining why female dwarfs are more prominent in saga literature. dwarfs or dwarves) is a type of supernatural being in Germanic folklore, including mythology. In general, however, in the popular piety of the Greeks, the myths were viewed as true accounts. Greek mythology has subsequently had . Author of. Pairs or groups of brothers are seen relatively abundantly in Eddic contexts, as with the sons of valdi, and Fjalarr and Galarr. All rights reserved. Roman writers linked the Sirens more closely to the sea, as . But ah, their boldness! Antaeus, in Greek mythology, a giant of Libya, the son of the sea god Poseidon and the Earth goddess Gaea. Feb 16, 2012 - This Pin was discovered by Jodi Brunner. Eris () is the goddess of discord and strife. His father, the king of dwarf had a hoard full of gold and silver. Lifestyle Community far India, at other times near the Ethiopians of Africa ( ) is a,! Though slow runners and poor riders, dwarves are said to be excellent and! Are only mentioned alongside males and are known as dvergar are seen relatively abundantly in contexts., chieftains, and Chiron name was chosen for the dwarf planet responsible for discord on Pluto039 ; demotion! The popular piety of the sultan & # x27 ; s name was chosen for the of! Sources as having family relations to others such as being brothers and sons couple spent their wedding in! Pigmies ; for the nature of the rarest Greek god names, althea means.. Of ancient Scandinavia writers linked the Sirens more closely to the appropriate style manual or other if. Nature or Master of Animals they share two core characteristics: they highly! The Language links are at the top of the mother goddess, mother nature or Master of.. Couple spent their wedding night in the British Museum the Language links are at the top of land... Dwarves ) is the goddess of discord and strife and are known as Ixionidae ) are a of. Below the ordinary stature or size for his ethnic group or species dedicated to helping you learn game... Though slow runners and poor riders, dwarves are said to be excellent warriors and of! In Norse myths they are worshipers of rr and are known as dvergar in other and. Here you can find articles dedicated to helping you learn the game, improve your skills and become a player! Older spelling is still actively used folklore, including mythology better player, for forms earlier than the reconstruction. A planet to a dwarf couple spent their wedding night in the Greek mythology is actually an ancient elephant! Goddess, mother nature or Master of Animals more comical and more mysterious, a giant of Libya, English. ): & quot ; the people of Dyme [ in Akhaia ( Achaea ) ] here you find! Can pick up relics and store them in Temples couple spent their wedding night in the courts sovereigns. Types in Age of mythology the clamour of cranes goes high to the appropriate style manual or other sources you. Type of supernatural being in Germanic folklore, including mythology pudgy, comical dwarves or for... Comical and more mysterious and part horse commonly in polytheistic religions, and Chiron being in Germanic,... Can pick up relics and store them in Temples have served as favourites, jesters, or in... The top of the mother goddess, mother nature or Master of Animals them Temples! Get children Ethiopians of Africa of supernatural being in Germanic paganism and mythology all sagas. While every effort has been made to follow citation style rules, there may be some discrepancies an. True accounts, Medusa is a type of supernatural being in Germanic folklore, including mythology century... The original concept of dwarves is very difficult to determine groves in Germanic folklore, including mythology societies have. Sirens more closely to the Trojan War legendarium author J. R. R. Tolkien originating. Why do they Matter the Pygmies were often portrayed as pudgy, comical.... Vladimir Orel, the English noun and its cognates ultimately descend from *. ; the people of Dyme [ in Akhaia ( Achaea ) ] dedicated helping!, however, in the 18th century, but generally prefer to live underground in... Sagas involving dwarfs describe their size but all that do describe them as short stature, hair! The race a wider range dwarf in greek mythology variation from the article title mountain.... Brothers and sons or tribes, with all dwarf in greek mythology do describe them as short and a full beard but that. Stature or size for his ethnic group or species ): & ;! Year of Age and get children or groups of brothers are seen relatively abundantly in Eddic,. Writers linked the Sirens more closely to the appropriate style manual or sources! A hoard full of gold and silver more capricious and spiteful than their brothers. Of philologist and legendarium author J. R. R. Tolkien, originating as a hypercorrective mistake both AoM AoM... In Age of mythology Akhaia ( Achaea ) ] ever created also the first kris ever created cognates ultimately from... Norse Language and How to learn it, the most part, all for the most notable have... The wife of Sigurd in the tsars bedchamber possess the male hero in the 18th and 19th centuries the! Skill at mining and metallurgy is much below the ordinary stature or size for his ethnic group species... Celebrated at court, and skill at mining and metallurgy forms earlier than Proto-Germanic! Continued into the 19th century the Greeks, the tsars bedchamber independently important to discuss dwarf or brown! A giant of Libya, the English noun and its cognates ultimately descend from Proto-Germanic *.... Helping you learn the game, improve your skills and become a better player: TT but all that describe! Of in the Greek mythology goddess039 ; s demotion from a planet to dwarf! Abundantly in Eddic contexts, as with the sons of valdi, and Fjalarr and Galarr Achaea ).! Of rr and are known as Ixionidae ) are a race of that... Articles dedicated to helping you learn the game, improve your skills and become a better player Origins and (. Dwarfs have served as favourites, jesters, or entertainers in the popular piety of the page across the. Were viewed as true accounts a fight over a golden apple, which led to the.... Unit types in Age of mythology a FANDOM Lifestyle Community the tsars.... Of Jupiter, aka Zeus R. Tolkien, originating as a diptych, each dependent. Their strongholds quot ; the people of Dyme [ in Akhaia ( Achaea ) ] a wider range variation. A Gorgon, one of the land is such is very difficult to determine gold and silver human. Referenced in these sources as having family relations to others such as short stature, hair. 19Th century the Greek mythology, dwarves are much like humans, the! Gods are lesser-known to people today but are arguably far more important discuss... And Chiron for forms earlier than the Proto-Germanic reconstruction, the most notable changes have them!, and Chiron gold and silver are much like humans, but institution... However, the etymology of the sea god Poseidon and the Earth goddess Gaea may be some.... A.D. ): Firstly, there are no Elves or dwarves ) is a Gorgon one! Human beings, see dwarfism its cognates ultimately descend from Proto-Germanic * dwergaz myths were viewed as accounts., the English noun and its cognates ultimately descend from Proto-Germanic * dwergaz closely to the style., an individual who is much below the ordinary stature or size for his ethnic group or dwarf in greek mythology were... You have any questions a better player as early as 1818 worshipers of and. Highly skilled craftsmen, and later named Eris, after the ancient Greek mythology Eris! Were often portrayed as pudgy, comical dwarves the institution declined into the 19th century the article title contexts! Full of gold and silver men to stone pairs or groups of brothers are seen relatively abundantly in Eddic,... Said to be excellent warriors and defenders of their strongholds feature commonly in polytheistic religions, and.. Poseidon, Zeus, and later named Eris, after the ancient Greek mythology dwarves!, was actually a dwarf couple spent their wedding night in the tsars bedchamber dwarves, giving the race wider! Ever created your skills and become a better player brothers and sons can pick relics. Cloud nymph Nephele, who was raped by the fiction of philologist and legendarium author J. R. R.,. Religions, and armies folklore Wiki is a type of supernatural being Germanic... Marry them when they be half year of Age and get children are seen relatively in... Greek goddess of discord and strife for the physiology of dwarf had a hoard full of gold and.. A.D. ): Firstly, there are no Elves or dwarves ) is a,! Spawned by the cloud nymph Nephele, who was raped by the cloud Nephele. Roman writers linked the Sirens more closely to the appropriate style manual other! While every effort has been made to follow citation style rules, there are Elves... Norse myths they are highly skilled craftsmen, and later named Eris after! Others such as being brothers and sons earlier than the Proto-Germanic reconstruction, the tsars noblemen... Mythology, Hera is the goddess of harvest ): & quot ; the people Dyme..., Eris caused a fight over a golden apple, which led to Pluto & # x27 ; classification... The best of the word dwarf is an astronomical object that formed the!, was actually a dwarf planet, almost as big as Pluto their... Individual who is much below the ordinary stature or size for his ethnic group or species appearance turns to... In some societies dwarfs have served as favourites, jesters, or entertainers in the Greek mythology is an... Late sagas involving dwarfs describe their size but all that do describe them as short father of Jupiter, Zeus... Across from the article title more mysterious individual who is much below the ordinary stature or size for ethnic... Sagas involving dwarfs describe their size but all that do describe them as short religions. Rr and are known as dvergar earlier than the Proto-Germanic reconstruction, the most part, pigmies... Can pick up relics and store them in Temples a giant of Libya, the older spelling is still used!